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Post by kiowawarrior on Apr 28, 2006 12:43:52 GMT -5
Sounds like it was a good time. I remember my class and the rest of the ones below us having cigars on the apron during christmas dinner. We were told not to, but we did it anyway. So all the Firsties were punished and we were confined to the grounds for a month or two. I thought that was lame...but if I had to do it again, I would be out there smoking my cigar.
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Post by JW on Apr 28, 2006 12:46:11 GMT -5
I'm a member of the class of '06, which means that I graduate in 28 days and have been here for almost 4 years. I'd just like to say if you've never been a west point cadet then you don't have a leg to stand on. The term "riot" is being completely misused by the over-zealous media. They've always got to turn nothing into something. It's nothing more than a rally. These "rallies" happen all the time, especially during football season, it's part of the cadet culture. I don't know many colleges where all the plebes (freshmen) get out and have a 1000-man pillow fight, do you? To all you non-West Pointers, chill out. It's really not as serious as the media makes it out to be (it never is).
Did you notice that the "riot" ended exactly one hour after it started at 2330 (11:30 p.m)... that's because it was taps and all the cadets were supposed to be in there rooms with the doors locked. How many riots do you know of that ceased as soon as it was time for the participants to go to bed? People throw things out of windows, yell a bit out of their windows, laugh... and then, there's a detail gathered up to clean up the mess and everyone goes to bed.
When you go through 4 years at an Academy, especially one as strict as West Point where you do not have the same liberties as students at "normal" colleges, there are certain things you do to maintain a healthy level of sanity. Other colleges have frat parties, get hammered, and have anonymous sex... we have pillow fights in central area and yell out of windows. In conclusion, I'd ask that you take what the media has to say with a grain of salt, especially when it comes to military matters of any kind, both home and abroad.
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Post by MAJ Chris Burns on Apr 28, 2006 12:47:07 GMT -5
What has happen to our beloved Corps? Our future leaders have truly embarrassed the Long Grey Line. All this for a Health and Welfare Inspection. Something that these future leaders will have to order and execute in the not so distant future. I hope that the leadership of the Academy will firmly look into this matter and discipline the personnel responsible for this; in fact, the better COA would be for all those that participated to report themselves to their TACs for action. Responsibility and Accountability. Hope the Corps learns these terms quickly.......
CHRISTOPHER A. BURNS
MAJ, MP
Brigade S3
16th Military Police Brigade (Airborne)
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Post by 98 grad F4F1 on Apr 28, 2006 13:07:38 GMT -5
'94-'98 here.
Rally = Riot.
not a big deal. i remember crazy stuff like that all the time.
appears as if the OIC that night isn't an old grad, based on the description in his report that evening.
good times.
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Post by Lisa Steptoe on Apr 28, 2006 13:08:16 GMT -5
JW- You said - quote - "I'd just like to say if you've never been a west point cadet then you don't have a leg to stand on."
Everybody on this forum IS a former West Point Cadet (ie. ALUMNI) and we ALL know what we are talking about and have a lot more legs to stand on than you, son.
Take the chip off before your 28 days are up. Welcome to the Long Grey Line.
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Post by Lisa Steptoe on Apr 28, 2006 13:11:10 GMT -5
Rich - I was in that food fight with the subs that year. Mom has a picture of the corp throwing them around. We were never allowed to take food into the stadium again. One of my fondest memories and a d**n good time.
Lisa Steptoe - 87
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Post by gwtopping on Apr 28, 2006 15:13:11 GMT -5
I want to believe it was just an impromptu rally that was reported by a journalist who doesn't understand the unique environment that WP is. What I find difficult to grasp, however (but it's been more than 30 years since I last walked the halls of the place and the world around it is not the mid-70s culture I knew), is the need for constant drug searches! What has prompted this? If drug use among the Corps is rampant, what does that suggest about how Commanders and Junior Officers are dealing with this in their units?
Gerry Topping, A-1, 1974
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Post by JT Edwards on Apr 28, 2006 15:24:35 GMT -5
Hey, '06 guy, watch your tone, mind your manners and listen to Lisa, she is saving you some grief when you are paroled in 28 days. I do think that this event has been blown out of proportion by the media. My class rallied as plebes for much longer and threw much worse things than peanut butter out of windows. I agree with GT from '74, the more interesting question is why was there a need for a drug search.
JT Edwards D3, F3 '00
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Post by ABF03 on Apr 28, 2006 15:29:42 GMT -5
As a member of the class of 2003, I'd like to second what JW said. The media has blown this out of the context of what it really is, just a bunch of cadets blowing off steam. This type of "riot" happened several times while I was there and while it is crazy to watch (one of my classmates threw his printer out the window and everyone in North Area was both amazed and amused), in the end there is no harm done and the CQ's form a detail to do clean up. I'm sure the impromptu, early morning health and welfare search was just the spark that ignited an already stressed environment. Also, while we rightfully hold the corps to a higher standard than any other academic institution, I think people tend to forget that even cadets can act like the 19-25 yr olds they are, sometimes.
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Post by BL 73 on Apr 28, 2006 16:31:30 GMT -5
Having read all the opinions that there should be punishment or just consider this a harmless prank, I can see the validity of both sides. However, my concern runs deeper and involves the Honor Code. Did the Academy cadre break faith with the Corps of Cadets? I am still struggling with this question. What better way to deal with this question then to offer it up for discussion.
I find it hard to believe that the Academy was not aware of the fire drill coinciding with the Corps wide drug search. Assuming the cadre was aware and intentionally planned the drill to hide the true intent to perform a search, the cadets were deceived into believing they were participating in a fire drill to mask the true intent of searching for drugs and were told that the drill and search were two separate and unconnected events.
Major General Maxwell Taylor wrote: “…………..Honor, as it is understood by the Corps of Cadets, is a fundamental attribute of character. Honor is a virtue which implies loyalty and courage, truthfulness and self respect, justice and generosity. Its underlying principle is truth. It is not a complicated system of ethics, but merely "honest dealing and clean thinking." If a cadet is true in thought, word, and deed, there is no question about his meeting the standards of the Corps. On the other hand, quibbling, evasive statements, or the use of technicalities to conceal guilt are not tolerated at West Point……..” (West Point Honor System, Its Objectives and Procedures: The Honor System at West Point)
Even though the Honor Code is administered by the Corp of Cadets and not the cadre, there is an implied contract between cadre and the cadets that all will adhere to the principles of the code, i.e., cadre will also not quibble, evade or use technicalities to conceal guilt (the truth). As such, what message was really sent to the Corp of Cadets on this subject? We (the cadre) can be deceptive but you cannot? To be completely “honorable”, I can accept using the fire alert system to get the cadets out of the barracks while at the same time announcing that there wasn’t a fire nor was it a drill and the true (honest) intent for the evacuation was to facilitate a search for drugs. This is being “honorable” and non-deceptive.
If the fire drill coinciding with the drug search was in fact an exquisite coincidence, I offer my sincere apologies for the aforementioned statements and remind the cadre of the tried and true 5 P’s (Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance) to prevent future perceptions of deception. However, if it was planned and a "cover story" was offered to the Corp, the faith was broken and the cadre needs to asks some very hard questions as to their duties as "honorable" role models.
BL '73
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Post by Geo on Apr 28, 2006 16:34:31 GMT -5
I agree - the media has gotten whiff of what happened and turned a "rally" into a "riot"...
In my 5 years at West Point (don't ask...), we did no more than what it sounds like these "New School" Cadets did...blow off some steam as TEE's, Grad Week, and Summer Training looms on the horizon. West Point is truly a one-of-a-kind experience, and, just like in the military, those Cadets at West Point have given up many of their freedoms that "normal" college students get to experience. But whenever we trashed the Barracks, North Area, the Mess Hall (remember the Food Fight during Navy Week with the "Goat Meat" and red Hawaiian Punch???)......we cleaned up our mess (I think the floor of the Mess Hall stayed sticky for awhile...) lost a few of the meager privileges we had, and life went on. A riot? NOT!!!
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Post by Grain of Salt on Apr 28, 2006 16:38:29 GMT -5
JW, I've been out for about 5 years from Castle Gray Skull. We had rallies all the time with fruit, condiments, and sometimes worst, being thrown from windows. I think at least since 1998, such things have occurred at least once a semester if not more. Agreed, an overblown and over-exaggerated incident that unfortunately received media attention. I remember always being irate on the mornings of health and welfare, mainly because they were always perfectly timed after spending a late night finalizing a term paper and studying for two WPRs...sound familiar? I'm sure cadets were in shower shoes and PTs, freezing in the quad as they wondered what triggered such a massive search, that apparently, resulted in nothing found. I think that's where trust issues might decline. I agree too with an analysis that the OIC was probably not Alumni; I think if he had been, he would have been more careful in how he painted the picture of the event. It's pretty sad, but I've encountered more resistance and discrimination from non-grad Officers in the Army about being a Grad, than from any Soldier or NCO. But, that's always going to be a fact of life. Fortunately, all the Grads in my unit have out-shined our counterparts and put such perceptions to rest, at least in the eyes of Soldiers. Maybe a safety discussion held about throwing objects out windows is appropriate, but mass punishment will only degrade morale, not teach a lesson. These cadets no they're going to be deployed in a few years or less; I'm sure one hour of blowing off steam won't detract or decrease their abilities of leading Soldiers in a combat zone. It didn't for me or my classmates. One of the biggest goofs I knew was awarded the Silver Star. Let's keep things in perspective, and not let ourselves to let the media over-exaggerate our response to the story, respectfully speaking.
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Mike Armstrong E3H1 87
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Post by Mike Armstrong E3H1 87 on Apr 28, 2006 19:06:38 GMT -5
With great respect and esteem to all those O-4s and O-5s out there calling for heads to roll (big props to you all - your careers have lasted far longer than mine), it seems that the pattern of these last few discussions is that all of us have had strange and wonderful things happen to us while we were on the Rock. It was all crazy, but it was understood that we were just blowing off some pent-up steam. By the way, a virtual high-five to my sister Lisa; the '84 Navy Food Fight was a VERY good time indeed (grinning). Do you remember the year that all the plebes (I think it was '86 at the time, I'm not quite sure) stormed the field to try to capture Navy's little mini-blimp, and Navy's plebes counterattacked before the game? Was there any media coverage of that "riot"? NO. As one of our distinguished alumni has already stated, it was part of CADET CULTURE.
Remember your chemistry and physics lessons, people. All things on the planet have to maintain balance, and no matter is ever lost. When things get out of balance, the system automatically enacts operations to restore it. The Corps routinely does stuff to keep itself balanced, to keep itself from becoming too stuffy and arrogant, to keep its sanity. That's all this was, guys. No harm, no foul (except for Peanut Butter Boy - you're right, he SHOULD have ducked...).
JW, you better enjoy these last 28 days while you got 'em, because you're about to get a real splash of cold water called REALITY in this man's Army... LGL, baby!
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Post by D Peebles 77 on Apr 28, 2006 23:52:06 GMT -5
I see two stories here:
1. The cadre misled the cadets, thereby acting dishonarably, and a group of men who hold honor with high regard execudted a loud fashioned protest. If so, the prevalent isues are the incomprehensible act of dishonor by bthe cadre, and the unprecedented, but almost reasonable response.
2. The event was just one more trying item for cadets to overcome by blowing of some steam, and they did. A couple of 8 and 8s builds character. Slap a couple of wrists and call it a day. Maybe these cadets will get lucky and receive a presidential visit, which always came with a pardon in my days.
I'm going with option 2. By the way, H&W searches are supposed to be unannounced aren't they?
Keep in mind, we've got the threat of barracks doors being locked because of rapes, excessive drunk and disorderly numbers, and the like being reported out of today's corps. We don't need to add anymore to that heap. Kinda nice to see that no drugs were found.
One more thing, this corp has a different challenge than mine did. It has to represent the mindset of people who are unavoidably going to face conflict. Our classes in the 70's and 80's did not have that responsibility. Scrutiny will be increased at today's academies.
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Post by BL 73 on Apr 29, 2006 12:23:43 GMT -5
D Peeples 77: I still have systemic concerns regarding the Honor Code but I must agree with your option #2 as far as any action to be taken against the participating cadets. And to clarify another point; yes, I totally agree that inspections such as this should be unannounced. My concern is what was shared with the Corp after they were on the tarmac.
That said, I must also agree with you that times have changed since you and I were there. We are the older generation now - smiles.
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